The History of the Polish Air Force 1919-1939

[Ian]

I have started a project to build as many PAF aircraft as possible in 1/72nd scale. Starting with an easy one the Airfix Avro 504K. Does anyone know which Tamiya acrylic green paint number is closest to the British green that the PAF DH-9A, Bristol Fighter, Sopwith Camel and SE5 would have been painted please. Then the closest Tamiya/Hataka Khaki that the SPAD 51, SPAD 61, Breguet 19 and PWS 10 would have been painted? Thanks 

[Grzes]

21 minut temu, Ian napisał:

I have started a project to build as many PAF aircraft as possible in 1/72nd scale

Great idea! 

[Kolekcjoner WP]

Godzinę temu, Ian napisał:

I have started a project to build as many PAF aircraft as possible in 1/72nd scale. Starting with an easy one the Airfix Avro 504K. Does anyone know which Tamiya acrylic green paint number is closest to the British green that the PAF DH-9A, Bristol Fighter, Sopwith Camel and SE5 would have been painted please. Then the closest Tamiya/Hataka Khaki that the SPAD 51, SPAD 61, Breguet 19 and PWS 10 would have been painted? Thanks 

 

 

Early Polish Air Force was using planes from many manufacturers, which ended in multiple khaki variants. In 1926, instruction nr 10718/26 was implemented and then started the "Early Khaki" period. 

 

I've painted my Sopwith Camel with Pactra RAF Green, that would be Humbrol 163,or Tamiya XF-61,

SE-5a with Pactra A69 which unfortunately didn't have much equivalences besides Agama P1M, but it is Olive Drab PC-10 according to Model Maker Decals

Fokker E.V with Pactra A29 FS 34079 which would be Tamiya XF-13

 

 

PWS-10 was painted in early Polish Khaki which is Hataka 011, also Breguet XIX was painted with that khaki.

 

In conclusion, Polish Air Force before 1926 was a mix of every camoulfage you can think of , and your paint choice should be based on the original owner's camo colours.

 

 

I highly reccomend those sites. They present original khaki variants from after 1926 period. You could translate them using google translate

 

https://www.modelpaint.pl/2017/06/24/tajemnice-polskiego-khaki/

https://www.modelpaint.pl/2017/09/23/polskie-khaki-cz-2-odnaleziony-wzornik-kolorow-radomskiej-fabryki-porsa/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edytowane 26 Września 2021 przez Kolekcjoner WP

[Ian]

Kolekcjoler, that’s brilliant information, thank you very much indeed. Lovely models too.

[jmx62]

Plus i minus to minus, tak mówi matematyka. Dlatego nie dodaję reakcji żeby nie popsuć komuś reputacji.

Za temat( sądząc po zdjęciach ) plus, za język użyty przy pisaniu - minus.

Pewno tym wpisem wywołam burzę.

To jest forum polskojęzyczne a ja po angielsku nic nie kumam. W czasach mojej aktywnosci szkolnej obowiązkowym byl język rosyjski a jednak go nie używam przy pisaniu postów. Jeżeli ktoś z zagranicy chce się  pochwalić to niech uszanuje nasz język i pisze po polsku.

Na pewno ciekawy temat ale nie będę oceniał bo nie wiem o czym się pisze.

Edytowane 27 Września 2021 przez jmx62

[Ian]

jmx62,

Firstly I must apologize for not writing this in the Polish language, I am truly sorry, however I was hoping that Polish Modellers, for whom I have great respect would be the best experts to ask for advice on this matter. I was not trying to be arrogant or disrespectful towards you or your language. I do have a smattering of German as I served there for three years in the RAF during the Cold War. I would think you would consider me very disrespectful if I tried to "parle" with you guys in Deutch if you knew I was British!

Indeed we do have our own modelling forms in Britain which I do use regularly but there is very little information on them regarding PAF colours. I actually came to your beautiful country twice in 2019, Krakow in fact with the primary aim of visiting the fabulous Aviation Museum there. I specifically wanted to see the PZL 11C  which I was told I could not see as the main hangar was being restored and the aircraft normally stored in it were not available to be seen by the public. However, all those aircraft were around the back outside a small shed and although the cockpit area was wrapped in clingfilm I did manage to get some photos before being shewed away by a member of staff. I also attended your Polish IPMS Show in the Home Army Museum in Krakow to see some of your models (much to m wife's annoyance).  So you can see I am a keen fellow modeller and love Polish aircraft.

 

I study your forums in Polish regularly and click on the Google translate tool to read what your contributors are saying in Polish.  In the spirit of modelling brotherhood I would imagine it is not too difficult for you do the same if you are reading British forums!

 

Finally I would like to again say a big 

Dziekuje Ci

in Polish to those who have taken the time to assist me with my enquiry.

Edytowane 27 Września 2021 przez Ian
spelling

[pmroczko]

jmx62 - kolega napisał, że on używa do tłumaczenia z polskiego google translate i Tobie też poleca do tekstów z angielskiego - tu mogę dać +1, to naprawdę dobre narzędzie. Przedtem napisał też, że przeprasza że pisze po angielsku, ale miał też do wyboru niemiecki i uznał, że to by nie było dobre. A ja bym Cię poprosił, żebyś odpuścił koledze - takich co się interesują polskim lotnictwem nawet w Polsce nie ma wielu, to może jak ktoś się ze świata zgłosi to pomóżmy mu zamiast awanturę robić a potem może jeszcze płakać, że nikt się nie interesuje i modeli też nie chcą produkować... Trochę tolerancji i życzliwości bardzo by nam wszystkim pomogło.

 

Ian - good luck with your collection and I hope you only get nice or polite comments on these forums from now on. I personally have no problem at all with reading or writing in english and I wish our colleagues here would show some more understanding. Thanks a lot for your interest in our aviation and have a nice day

 

Paweł

[greatgonzo]

Ian, You've made the right move and, I am sure, most of us feel appreciated You found this forum a suitable source. Pity, You've been put in the situation, where You felt obliged to apologise. Now I feel the same and  I do apologise, You have not been welcomed properly. Not the standard my fellow modellers find to be right. Well, most of them, I hope. Sorry mate, our fault.

 

 Still, since we've been straggling with linguistic problems here, I have some story that may be of interest.

PAF - Polish Air Force in Polish is a term reserved for the units organised and operating with RAF in GB during the IIWW only. Any other military air organisation of any other time, or air forces in general carry their own name. Usually it would be 'lotnictwo wojskowe' - 'military aviation'. That goes for foreign  units too. Something widely forgotten  in common language here in Poland. As said: purely linguistic problem and rather unsolvable in English. A curiosity. I am not correcting You at all, just trying to point our attention to another subject :).

 

It 's excellent this modelling plan of Yours. Keep going! Good luck!

Edytowane 27 Września 2021 przez greatgonzo

[Ian]

Twinkle & Greatgonzo, thank you for your inputs, they are much appreciated.

 

I remember when I was a small boy n the 1960's every town here in the UK had a "White Eagle " Club, that was referred to in Derby where I originally lived as the "Polish Airmen's Club" . My Father's best friend was an ex Polish Paratrooper called Ted, he and his wife would often invite our family to the White Eagle for parties and other functions.  I have never forgotten the warmth and generosity shown to us outsiders by the Polish members of the Club as those parties. I have a book written by Belcarz and Peczkowski called White Eagles, is this also used as a reference for your Airmen in Poland?

 

In recent years I have just about every book I can get my hands on about the Polish Armed Forces in WWII. The Polish Soldiers at Monte Casino, Paratroops at Arnhem and of course 303 Sqn and the the other Polish Air Force Sqns that flew alongside the RAF.  I know how badly Winston Churchill treated our Polish Allies at the end of the war and how he did not allow the Polish Armed Forces to take part in the 1946 Victory Parade in London, to appease Stalin  so I can image how some Polish folks could feel antagonism towards the British for the way we have treated the Poles in the past.  I know my now deceased Father felt ashamed of it. That said, times have changed and we have all moved on. I am just fascinated by your  Culture, Country, Food (especially your food) and History.  So please bear with me if I ask questions on these forums in the future.

 

Here are some of the models I have built so far, for your perusal.

Best regards

Ian Shaw

Edytowane 27 Września 2021 przez Ian
Adding Photos

[greatgonzo]

22 godziny temu, Ian napisał:

I know how badly Winston Churchill treated our Polish Allies at the end of the war and how he did not allow the Polish Armed Forces to take part in the 1946 Victory Parade in London, to appease Stalin  so I can image how some Polish folks could feel antagonism towards the British for the way we have treated the Poles in the past.

Well, this antagonism should have been felt towards the British from the past then, if felt at all, ain't it?  I can't speak for everybody, but I do not see it this way. I don't feel angry for some foreign politics minding the business of their own countrymen. I am pissed for our leaders, who did run the politics based on dreams and imaginations, rather then realism and scepticism. The Victory parade is not such a black and white story either. The British behaved at least relatively fair in this situation. The inner Polish problems were more of an issue here. There  are good source documents on the matter, published by IPN - national history organisation. You can discuss that, sure, but certainly not a one sided situation.

 

Never heard of 'White Eagles' book. Would You care to add a word or two about it?

I don't know if it even exist in English, but considering so, I would recommend You memories of Witold Urbanowicz. You must have known the name :). Great man, but also good observer and good writer. He talks about much more then flying and shooting. His books stand out from the standard level of war airmen stories.

 

It will be nice to see some questions from you. If You happened to plan a build of some aircraft used by a group of Polish pilots in the 56th American FG, I would be the  first one to assist.

 

[Ian]

Greatgonzo,

 

I take your point regarding the political situation regarding the Polish armed forces in the UK at the end of WW2, I guess many of the Polish servicemen stayed in the UK and made their lives here for exactly those reasons. Skalski's book touches on the subject and how badly treated PAF Airmen were treated by the Soviets if they returned to Poland.

 

Here is the book I mentioned "White Eagles" it is still available ON aMAZON FOR £37, not cheap but worth the money. I will post more photos belo of the contents. It is very detailed and has lots of stats and facts in it and several pages of 1/72nd scale side views colour plates at the back.  

[Ian]

[Ian]

[Ian]

Here is part of my reference library, I have all the relevant MMP Polish Wings Bookzines  in the shed too to use as references. My wife thinks I am crazy hunting down all these Polish models and books but it keeps out of the pub!

[Ian]

Here is some of the Polish "stash"  I have yet to build.  Currently building a 1/48 Lublin R XIIID.

 

Edytowane 1 Października 2021 przez Ian
Adding Photos

[Ian]

Just about finished the 504K , just the windscreens to add. I haven't done too much rigging as in this small scale it would look too cluttered. Sorry for the inverted photo but can't seem to get this site tom accept the photos the right way up even if I turn them around!

 

 

Edytowane 1 Października 2021 przez Ian

[pmroczko]

Now that's dedication!

 

As for the picture - try rotating it in some (other) image processing program.

 

Thanks for sharing and have a nice day

 

Paweł

[Kolekcjoner WP]

That's a well build miniature of Avro 504K 

 

Great stash and gigantic amount of reference books. 

 

Have fun with Polish Air Force! 

[greatgonzo]

Well, I was talking about British  behaviour strictly. I wasn't comparing them to Russians, no way!

The problem was a conflict between Polish Warsaw and London governments. Warsaw 'unit', the only one acknowledged by international community at the time, demanded there will be no representation of  officially not existing London 'unit' at the parade. London guys demanded the same other way round. No part cared about feelings of the soldiers, at all. British could not exclude the country they just had agreed to respect internationally.  It is possible to undermine British politics of the time as a whole - there is an area for debate there. But with the parade Geordie had his hands tied, it was a done deal then.  

Warsaw delegation was very small, and quite interesting - two out of three leading officers represented units fighting in the West. This never changed the mind of the western side and they forbid Polish soldiers to partake in the parade. British tried to offer some solution to the problem inviting Polish soldiers to join their Royal comrades. Remember,  nobody said  Poles were not allowed to form  their own columns marching among British troops. Our London government didn't care, Polish soldiers didn't march. None of them, as Warsaw guys at the very last moment got cold feet, fearing Moscow reaction for taking part in the event at all. So their delegation just did not appear.

 

Thanks for the 'White Eagles' review. Interesting book, it seems, but out of my main area of interest. Good, it will not bother me in my sleep :).

I keep my finger crossed for the rise of Your very interesting collection.

Edytowane 1 Października 2021 przez greatgonzo

[myszaty]

Ian, respect for the set of models, I keep my fingers crossed for their implementation, the set is almost the same as mine , only get rid of this Karaś - there is a much better set from IBG.
Good luck.
(translated uncle google ).

[Ian]

Myszaty,

 

Thanks for the advice. I thinks I will take it to save myself time and frustration!